Note: This is an edited post. An earlier version of this post had an intro that said Will is “okay with feminism” by which I meant neutral on feminism, not an antifeminist. That line has been misunderstood and I realized it wasn’t the best choice of words. My introduction portion of the post has been revised.
I’m so excited to share this interview with you all! I had the privilege of interviewing Will, the man who created and wrote a good chunk of the incel wiki (including a page about a certain indie author 😉 I’ll literally never get over the fact that I’m in the incel wiki; it’s way too cool). Will also created the gender-inclusive, normie friendly, and LGBTQ+ inclusive incel forum yourenotalone.co (formerly called incelistan). This forum featured prominently in the BBC documentary ‘Inside the Secret World of Incels.’ Will’s forum was primarily used in the documentary as a contrast to edgier incel forums.
I don’t think the BBC documentary is very good, because it does focus too much on the edgy guys and make it sound like every incel is a bomb of violence about to go off. For a while, I shared that viewpoint. My opinion was this: incels have legitimate grievances with society and with the double standards applied to men and women and we should be listening to those grievances, so that less men end up in these radicalizing, violent online spaces. But, you know….then I actually went and talked to a few of them. I also lurked really heavily in a bunch of incel communities. And more and more that ‘violent extremists’ narrative just really started to ring false to me. I don’t hold that view anymore. Now I believe the ‘incels have legitimate grievances’ portion of that, minus the bit about listening to their grievances so that they don’t become violent, because that entire narrative is just really silly. They’re just dudes, and a lot of them don’t even hate women.
Like the guy I’m interviewing today! This guy about broke my brain when I first discovered his forum. He is a liberal incel. He’s very much against trad-con conservatism. And he’s super active in the incelosphere. So my main point with introducing this guy to you all is basically to be like: Look! The incel stereotype the media shoves at you just isn’t the reality.
They’re not all these raging misogynists who want to take away women’s autonomy and force them into sexual slavery. To be honest, that sounds like some bad amazon smut.
There are edgy violent incel spaces out there, but I’d urge you not to start popping of at the mouth about incels until you go out of your way to lurk in some of the chill places where the dudes (and women too!) are just regular people. You will find, like I did, that there are far more incels that are regular reasonable people than there are wild men telling each other to ‘go ER.’
The problem is that people are fascinated with the edgy side of the romantically-challenged community, the side with that bad boy image, while communities like r/foreveralone and even r/incelswithouthate get far less attention than forums where rape and violence are openly discussed, or places like r/braincels where casual misogyny is (well, was, they were banned in Sept of 2019) very common.
If we actually care about the challenges that incels face, then let’s listen to what some of the regular, reasonable men have to say.
And this man is one of the most hardworking dudes in the incelosphere. I’m absolutely in awe of all the research he did for his wiki, the unique forum and facebook group he created, and overall just the way he conducts himself online, managing to build relationships with incels and normies alike and he doesn’t back down from his opinions, even when they are unpopular.
I mean, the guy took Wikipedia to task! You’ve got to admire a guy who isn’t afraid to pipe up to people in power. You’ve got to stan someone who goes against the grain and says their piece, knowing it’s going to get backlash (which this dude does on the regular).
So, Will, can you introduce yourself to my readers and tell us a little about what you do?
Hello, Jyvur Entropy fans, my name is William, and I am the co-creator and main writer of Incel Wiki, and admin of a non-violent, gender inclusive forum for romantically unsuccessful people called https://yourenotalone.co/
We also do other projects, but it would be obnoxious to list them all.
You can go ahead and talk about your other projects if you want. I think my readers would love to hear about them.
*sigh* Okay, so the main other project that we are also working on is a men’s movement that is separate from the MRA space and the MGTOW space, that I don’t lead, but provide server infrastructure for. https://promale.wiki/
It’s called the ‘pro male’ movement.
I also do editorial work for them. The people who lead it are called the ‘pro male collective.’
They started it, because they were upset with the influence of traditionalism in the manosphere.
And we also run a number of comedy sites that shall not be named
To the extent the incel wiki is not a comedy site, which it basically is.
Wow, you do a lot! You’re a prolific guy. I’m actually really curious about this men’s group. What does a men’s group without the influence of traditionalism look like? What kinds of stuff does the group advocate for?
Also, the incel wiki is hilarious lol
Oh, thank you, yes that was our goal with the wiki. To make it funny like Encyclopedia Dramatica (not Uncyclopedia).
We also made the wiki legal and not defamatory. We also never condone violence or other crimes, nor do we worship/celebrate violence or other crimes.
So with the pro male collective, they mainly advocate for equal parenting. Another way they distinguish from other manosphere places is they are very much against marriage,
like all of them. They also have a problem with labels such as ‘soyboy’, ‘cuck’, etc, as they see those labels as anti-male.
‘numale’, ‘alpha’, ‘beta’ They see them as words that are meant to status-shame or mate-guard in a way that is ultimately toxic, and even more than that, all those words that the manosphere uses as insults like, ‘beta’ etc, are they directed at women? No, they are directed at men exclusively. So a bunch of guys on youtube got fed up with the manosphere and created a ‘pro male’ movement, which is mostly active on r/promalecollective, which has a few thousands subs, but the main guys are these 14 vloggers.
(Pro Male Collective is not associated with inceldom-just something neat Will helps out with).
Okay, I have a new subreddit to lurk on 😀
You have a good point though, those words are really awful slurs to throw at men.
For the record, the leader of that particular movement, his name is analyzingmaleslavery, is a really intelligent guy and does not like to be associated with incels. He is not an incel
I just provide a server for them and do editorial stuff.
Yea, those words are pretty much constant.
If you go onto incels dot co, ‘cuck’ and ‘soyboy’ are about every 4th word.
Just as an experiment, we banned abused words like that on yourenotalone.co, and incels.co refugees all left, which was the intended purpose. They cannot speak without those words.
That’s a hilarious experiment lol
So, your forum was something else I wanted to ask you about.
If you check this link, you can see just how much the refugees tried to use those words, which are now censored.
The point isn’t to be the goody-2-shoes board, although we also are that, but the point is to keep people that raise my blood pressure off the board, and to make the forum more friendly to normies.
Your forum is awesome. It’s so chill. It’s gender-inclusive. It’s got some LGBT+ people. Everybody has all of these interesting, nuanced discussions. It’s VERY different from any other incel forum I’ve found. (Like, it’s just nice to lurk without watching dudes call women ‘holes’ and ‘sperm toilets’ and all of that). I really appreciate that it’s friendly to normies!
What inspired you to create the forum? Was it the first forum you created or were there others?
And how did you feel about the forum being included in the BBC documentary?
Well, the love-shy.com forum (which is now defunct) inspired most of my forums, and our facebook group is even better than yourenotalone.co imho, and started before yourenotalone.
yourenotalone used to be called incelistan. We changed the name for a number of reasons. One being that ‘yourenotalone’ also was the name of the last forum Alana’s group, the original incel group, before they folded. So, we stole that name to signal we were friendly to their original inclusive intentions. I always wanted to create a forum that I felt comfortable posting in and that would generate less misandry from liberals, but I think I achieved that more with the Facebook group than yourenotalone.
Being in the BBC doc was meh.
‘Matt’ from our forum did a really good job, but I felt like that doc could have been better, because they editorialized way too much.
There was a 2011 documentary on love-shy.com, that any of your readers who are interested in incels should check out imho. As it’s good, the subjects are interesting and sane.
It’s called Shy Boys IRL and in my opinion is the only good incel doc, because the documentarian let them speak unedited.
But talk of ‘incel docs’ is cringey at this point, because there’s just so many of them and there doesn’t really need to be any more, unless someone wants to interview the much more diverse, foreign self-described incels.
I saw the love-shy doc and thought they were badass, particularly the admin, even though we met afterward and don’t get along. But I liked the idea of his forum, which started WAY before the current forums and lasted 17 years, longer than any other incel forum.
It got almost no mainstream media attention, because while it had a few radical years, it didn’t have much stuff for female journalists to masturbate over.
Although it did get some attention on the Jerry-Springer-like forums, such as Kiwi Farms.
The smaller incel forums I’ve always been interested in. I’ve never read incels dot co for more than 5 minutes at a time, because it bores me. I even read forums smaller than mine more than I read my own forum.
And to avoid being excommunicated from the incels dot co’s respect for the third time, I’ll just say they aren’t horrible people.
But we do disagree on a lot.
They are sometimes sort of like capitalists and I have an issue with capitalism.
Shouldn’t really talk more about that, although I’m not actively trying to get them shut down,
What do you think the smaller forums have over the bigger ones?
Also, do you think the edgier forums get more media attention because of hybristophilia or something related? (if so, I sort of think you’re on to something)
Well, I started my forums in 2017 just as the larger forums were starting out. I bombarded them with links to my forum in 2017, which at the time was r/leftyincel, which I never really worked on.
Then I eventually became friends with one of the incels.co admins, and so I stopped actively being hostile to their site.
But as far as the smaller forums, there’s less noise and more interesting content to me, the extreme ones and the not-so-extreme ones. I’m talking about the forums smaller than mine as far as active users.
I’m a bit guarded nowadays about opinions about forums, because I try to keep up a good rapport with everyone I ever meet on the internet, on any site.
The bigger forums get the most attention because they allow violence-fantasization postings and inherited the userbase of r/incels and even inherited the mods.
But r/incels was not the first incel forum at all, as most people know at this point, there were many incel forums before any incel subreddit including before r/truecels.
r/incels started as an r/truecels ban evasion, which was some forum that crossed the line too many times. But then r/incels toned the rape stuff down a bit.
I have no formal association with r/incels or incels dot co besides just friendly PMs with incels.co admins. For the record, those admins don’t advocate rape.
As I mentioned earlier, I wrote that wiki that is hosted on their servers and they did not write it at all. I never had direct server access, only front-end wiki software access. They never would have trusted me with direct server access anyway due to ideological differences.
We don’t condone rape on the wiki or my site.
The wiki was intended to NOT be an incels.co wiki and still is not that.
The wiki must have taken a lot of work. I’m amazed I still haven’t read all of the articles. I go on there and hit random and feel like I get something new all the time.
What’s the main goal of the wiki? Is it for incels or to teach normies about incels or to just document everything related to inceldom?
Also how much time and research did you put into your portion of it?
I imagine you must have spent quite a long time on it.
So yea, I was in a huge battle with admins on Wikipedia before incel wiki was a thing. Daily. Hourly.
Arguments on the Incel talk page on Wikipedia. They moved the ‘involuntary celibacy’ article to ‘incel’ because enough Wikipedians voted that ‘involuntary celibacy’ was not a real condition. Even though it was listed as one on there for almost 10 years prior, which made me somewhat upset.
So, Wikipedia moved ‘involuntary celibacy’ to ‘incel’ so they could virgin-shame more and give the extremists more attention. They could then use more op-eds to slander incels with the page name being the shortened term.
I had a big problem with that. The two Wikipedia admins I was arguing with, I didn’t know this at the time, but they were some of the most prominent people at Wikipedia besides Jimmy Wales, which might be part of why I was so unsuccessful, on Wikipedia at least. They were featured in ad campaigns for Wikipedia, like those pathetic little ‘give me money’ ads they had on there for a few years. A bunch of feminist programmers who are also either admins or former programmers for the Wikimedia foundation.
So, eventually I submitted a complaint to Wikipedia’s highest kangeroo court, over WP:OWN violations from Wikipedia big shots, and they dismissed it because I was not using methods of complaint on Wikipedia, which would have gotten me banned. But eventually, I got globally banned from all Wikimedia owned sites.
I was talking to an incels.co admin about all these things, and he had the idea for a wiki but never installed it. A few months later, I asked him to install it and gave him the logo, and he made me admin (on the front-end software, not backend). He goes by ‘Master/Javix’, and a billion other names, and even though he didn’t write it, I like to credit him as co-creator.
Then I proceeded to write the vast majority of it over 2 years. I put daily research into it, mainly using webarchive, and Reformedincel’s 100 page book on early incel forum history.
Plus the now defunct, ‘redpill wiki’ ‘kings wiki’ ‘love-shy wiki’ etc, all lost to the ages, but preserved on Webarchive, and other resources, always double-checking for accuracy, and putting in cite notes when necessary.
And also just inside knowledge, we did more research on incels than probably any government agency (and made it all public, I don’t have any secret info) but I already offered support to anti-extremism bodies and they blew me off, and then one of them, moonshotcve, referenced some of my stuff.
Like excerpts from my stuff (non-extreme, legal stuff), like what Moonshot CVE did on the first 3 pages of their report, some stuff from my Wiki and Twitter, just to be as an intro for things they actually have a problem with that I have nothing to do with. I admin yourenotalone.co, not incels.co. They proceeded to complain about incels.co.
moonshotCVE being this anti-extremist organization that the Canadian gvmt gave 2+ million dollars to.
Yeah, I just googled them. Do agencies actually watch incel communities and research them? Also, that’s pretty shitty that they ripped off your hard work like that.
Google date parameters were also useful for research, especially for research on blog posts on early stuff like the George Sodini shooter and other stuff no one gives any shits about anymore.
On the wiki, of course, we do not condone the shooters/murderers or their crimes.
Agencies watch incel stuff all the time, but I’m never worried because I never do anything illegal on the internet, and also everything I’ve ever written has been non-violent, anti-rape blah blah..
They didn’t rip us off; They just didn’t hire me, which I was upset about lol
I would rather work for an anti-extremist contractor than the government, because I hate the government.
I don’t understand why they’re so worried about incels. I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong. I just feel like there are way more problematic communities out there.
They should have hired you! I’m reading this like, damn, somebody give this man a research job.
It sounds like you’re really thorough and fastidious in your research.
Well, the guys on incels.co are doing the equivalent of shouting outside of an FBI facility saying, ‘LOOK AT ME , I’M LONELY, GIVE ME ATTENTION’ and even if they aren’t ultimately a danger, (which they aren’t) like those FBI guys are gonna come out and be like, ‘ok what’s up?’ lol
Haha, that’s a hilarious metaphor.
A lot of narcissism on the larger forums. They think they’re in a movie thanks to all this sensational and irresponsible media attention, and it hurts them to think as if they are in a movie.
I’ve told the incels.co admins various ways they could cut down on violence and rape postings on their forum, because I don’t think that people should be violent or rape,
but ultimately Naama Kates (a nice person) had the most influence as far as reducing that talk there, is my guess. Indirectly possibly. Probably by just listening to them and giving them a platform. I have my own issues with what she does, but it’s not all black and white.
I feel like I’m learning so much here. Thanks for sharing so much behind the scenes stuff
One question I’ve been dying to ask is what can normies do to be allies to incels? And do incels even want normie allies?
Also, what misconceptions about incels would you most like to correct?
Well, as I mentioned earlier, the second forum I started was a non-violent facebook forum that was created before the media barrage. It’s still running believe it or not, but shadowbanned by facebook so somewhat stagnant now. It lets in normies and allies and stuff.
But even before my stuff, there was Alana’s forum in 1997, then Talmer’s and Rebecca’s forum, “IncelSupport”. in the early 2000s, then love-shy.com which also allowed normies.
All these incel forums that existed before r/incels deserve attention.
So part of the wiki was expanding the incel space beyond what the media wanted it to be,
by reintroducing people to its very long history of the incel space being normie inclusive
The first incel forum had a gay web association web award on the bottom of it lol
Like could you imagine that on the high-velocity forums today lol?
That was the exact award right on the bottom of the first incel site, for years.
And LGBT politics is a bit tiring, as they have a ton of cultural capital now, but it’s useful to know that the incel thing isn’t just ‘tradconism’ or if it is, then it’s not the root of it.
Root of it was some lesbian woman
on the internet at least
That’s awesome. I mean, in my time lurking I’ve definitely come across a lot of LGBT+ people in incel spaces.
No way to give a beginning for the idea of ‘involuntary celibacy.’
Yea well, there’s now a few more forums that let them on. Before my forum, for about 3 years there were no forums for LGBT incels. But I always thought that the LGBT community was necessary to have support from, because they just are very important to mainstream society nowadays.
Definitely. Inclusivity is really important.
Well, I mean the avant-garde of every left movement is some trannsexual or something, like the leader of Occupy was Justine Tunney. So it’s not just generic inclusivity. Ideally there’d be the avant-garde of every political side on board, which of course hasn’t happened on the left, but only the right. Like if the LGBT movement was accepting of incels, which they are not, but if they were, then all this misandry would be toned down.
Because the misandry is triggered from the tradconism on the high-velocity boards. The reaction to all the tradcon stuff on the high-velocity boards is mass misandry all over mainstream liberal society: Comedy Central, The New Yorker, The Huffington Post, your local therapist, etc etc…They would all be nice to incels, if more incels let on women and queers and treated them nice.
Literally the only people who respect incels right now are these far-right guys, like Red Ice Radio, or Richard Spencer, or all these other widely despised cringelords from the racist right.
The racist right mainly attaches to incels because they are pro-natalist and they share tradcon values with the high-velocity boards.
But incels can do better than that. Even if parts of your audience agrees with these guys I mentioned, incels absolutely need wider support than that imho.
It makes sense to have LGBT+ people be a part of incel communities. Like, so many of them live in places where homophobia is rampant, so they can’t date openly because of that.
Trans people also have a more limited dating pool. It makes sense that LGBT+ people would struggle romantically at times.
And btw I don’t think ‘traditional gender roles’ are friendly to incels at all.
Right exactly, and many transsexuals want their genitals changed, which is much more extreme than incels wanting their acne scars changed or whatever. Like it generates more self loathing
So they identify with incels in that way and many other ways.
I’d actually really love to hear more about that. I guess the trad-con incels have me convinced. Change my mind? lol
Why wouldn’t a return to a more traditional society cut down on inceldom?
So I’m not good at changing people’s minds on the spot. I’m better at creating things that people then read and decide for themselves, but I did write a long blog post about it here if your readers are interested https://ablogaboutincels.com/2020/01/18/debunking-the-tradcon-narrative-about-incel/
The summary is that,
Here’s one good statistic: in the 19th century, almost 75% of men below age 30 were unmarried in the USA and this is during a time that premarital sex was a big no no, so virtually all of these young guys were incel before the sexual revolution. There is this pervasive myth that the ‘sexual revolution created the incel problem,’ which is empirically false.
It’s a good little nursery rhyme, it feels good, it has an internal logic, but it’s sort of disproven by celibacy stats pre-sexual-revolution.
I mean looking at the stats, it’s possible the sexual revolution exacerbated inceldom by like 5-10% or something, or for people over 30 years old, but most incels, the damage occurs before 30 years old, before marriage.
But there were TONS of incels before the sexual revolution. And even though almost everyone got married at some point, people were incel until their mid-30s back then. And the male sex drive is highest at 18 by nature probably. So the damage from inceldom would have been done before marriage, just as it is now.
All of these incel forum guys are under 30 and are complaining of the inceldom of their current, pre-30-years-old age.
The stats in that academic article, specifically right after the Civil War, right when you’d think there’d be a baby boom, just tons of incels. And similar stats confirm this all throughout the 1900s, which is you know, before the dissolution of marriage laws and before the sexual revolution.
Angela Nagle, Roger Devlin, and all these other pundits I gave a platform to in one of my Youtube videos, that I think you saw, and that incels.co featured for almost a year in a pinned post, called ‘academics defend incels’ or something (and btw they weren’t academic lol, I just named it that for fun). These guys all gave that narrative of ‘the sexual revolution caused inceldom’.
I didn’t believe any of it but it was just a nice story. Nice thing to get people sympathetic over incels for, including some documentarians who were subbed to me at the time I put out that video.
But that narrative of ‘the sexual revolution caused inceldom’ is totally bullshit. When I started calling it bullshit in public, then all the high-velocity board guys were like ‘wtf? You created all this shit and now you’re turning against it?’ The only reason I promoted it in the first place was because it was the only narrative out there.
Then this new guy named Alex Undersky, a Russian incel forum admin came on the scene giving a completely different narrative, which fits my life more, and also is like more accurate in my mind, although I think he also gets some stuff wrong.
Cool 🙂 Thanks for sharing these sources. I’m gonna give your position a little more consideration and read these over.
So, I’ve already taken up too much of your time! But I just have a few fun questions to end on. I always end interviews on fun questions.
What is your favorite band? What is your favorite way to spend a lazy day?
And most importantly……What are you going to name this cat you’re talking about getting?! Inquiring minds want to know!
My favorite band is Hayley Williams’ band, and my favorite way to spend the day is to write wikis or blogs or create sites or listen to music.
The cat is going to have to be hypoallergenic cuz reasons, so waiting on one to arrive in a shelter that meets that requirement
I grew up around cats and love them. The cat’s name might be ‘Finn.’
But yea, thanks for letting me give my opinions and that’s it.
That’s it for my interview with Will of the incel wiki and yourenotalone.co!
Check out Will’s many projects below!
Yourenotalone.co (forum for romantically-unsuccessful people of all genders and sexual orientations)